players playing your map?? tips to consider!! please add..

[omnix32]

Lets face it. Most user made maps will never get mainstream play. IN fact there are few good maps out of the hundreds anyway. I have seen awsome maps that have horrible playability. There has to be a balance for truly expert map design. I see alot of beginers that have great mapping skills and can make some pretty impressive things in the editor but they over clutter and over complex there work, making the avarage person loose interest in the map. Being good at mapping is one thing. Understanding what makes a super map is another. WE can see some examples of great maps from the retail games itself, but almost everyone loves just a few. Why??? Because of the newness of the game its impossible to see How people are going to adapt and play it. I am talking about game flow, and the fun factor.

Lets look at some winners from two games.
RTCW: beach map
MOH: v2 rocket facility and Omaha Beach (one falls short)

The beach map for RTCW is one of the best maps ever made, its got great game flow and is simple to learn. Something to try to understand why it works.

v2 rocket facility and Omaha beach for MOH are the other two examples of great objective maps.

What these maps have is a balance of sniper positions and close combat. Maps are not alot of fun if you just get snipered the whole level. Then again there has to be some type of long distance defence or offence. All 3 maps offer that.

Both maps offer places for the offencive team to hide out in emeny territory ready to complete the objective, but the places are not to complex and simple to learn in a few plays. All three of the maps offer very little dead space and places where people don't hang out, hard to do in games where you start with your weapons as theres no need to take a small adventure to grab that rocket launcher.

Mistakes I see in most RTCW maps:
1) to much dead space.
2) horrible fps
3) to complex and hard to learn the layout. players would rather go to a map that is easy to learn rather taking the time to learn a complex layout even if it would be better for them in the end.
4) unfair advantage for one of the opposing sides. (like Omaha Beach)

Things to do:
most folks like a good looking map. The horrible truth is that you may have spent hours making a room that nobody is going to give a second look, but they will notice slow down. make rooms simple. The great mappers can make a room look interesting without alot of eye candy and slow down.

(BIG ONE) keep the dead space to the minumium. I see way to many maps that have places that go nowhere and are out of the game play area. This is wasted space that is going to be drawn by the engine and may put some off that are playing the map for the first time. The heavy areas are to the objectives with small non-complex off braches for hiding or supprising the opposing team. This is hard to do in a Objective map as there are no goodies to find and use against other players. All those fancy rooms you spent hours making are for nothing if nobody has a use for them.

Make finding the objectives simple and don't block them with a maze. People like fast gameplay and don't want to have to run through a maze everytime they have to respawn.

Keep in mind engine limitations.
Think up or down and keep things on an uneaven level. The engine may draw everything next to the portals but what the player is looking at in any direction is going to effect there r_speed. Don't use smoking ruins or rain effects for a multiplayer map. Not everyone has a monster computer. You can get by with alot of trees for example if you make them larger and the player has to look up to see all the alpha textured leaves. His focus is going to be in front of him so the leaves are not going to hurt his fps much but he knows the leaves are there. Same way with complex rooms. use stairs and hills to your advantage.

Lighting: I see alot of dark areas in maps or I see maps that are to bright. Try not to have spots where a player can hide and not be seen because its to dark, or if you do make it clear that the place is designed for a player to hide out there.

File size:
keep them around 4 meg. I love custom textures and love to make things in 3dsmax, but there are still alot of modem users out there that won't even look at a map that is 7 meg or more.

Your not all that so don't even try:
I see a tendency for alot of mappers to add things to there maps just to impress people, they think "wait until they see this". the truth is that most gamers have no comprehension of all the skill and work it took to make those fancy things, so the bottom line is they won't notice them. If your making things to impress then your mind is off the main points that will make a map fun and your going to make a over complex map that nobody will want to play. Sure you can make the wood trim with 1 unit brushes but why not just use a texture?? Wood trim may look nicer but believe me nobody will care. Keep it simple...........

The great skill is balance and understanding game flow. We get caught up in how nice it looks (after all we spent hours and hours learning to make things) but in the end its going to come down to people that want play your map. concentrate on getting all the texture aligned and lighting for your level. you may have to sacrifice creativity for game flow but a great mapping will notice the difference and when and where to use his tools and skill where there needed. plan the level out ahead of time and test it with friends without realeasing to the general public. you as good as your first map.

just some thoughts........
fun mapping.

[Detoeni]

Lots of good points there.
On a smillar vain is this interview with Paul Jaquays (for folks who dont know, he was one of the level designers for Quake3)

http://www.quakeskills.com/articles/comments.php?id=347705990

This interview was done in three parts, this section is about level design.

[eyeronik]

Many valid points but i cant see how you can keep to 4mb, the offical maps are effectively using custom textures its just there in the pak file but smaller is better yes, although i have the image of people making there map worse to allow it to be smaller, all for what really? a longer wait, i think people should already of downloaded the maps on custom servers rather than off the server.

But anywayyyyyyyyyy take my map its 14mb :P but theres a bit of a problem where if people dont have game of the year there will be shader errors and since its not a must download (why not ??!!!) some people dont have it, i used about 4mb of them i think so i had to include it. Also i used many rspeed saving textures so that meant more custom textures. To be honest i think people should make the best map they can and forget about filesize. It is after all just longer to download it. There are a few good custom maps and none of them are anywhere near 4mb, the official maps used there own textures really so they wouldnt be that low either prolly and if you want to make your own look that means you cant, but the truth is most people dont care if the maps on a server and its good people will get it, i always seem to mention market dammed garden, but thats probably the most popular custom map, guess how big it is, 30mb....... i rest my case :P - also! i downloaded that on 56k myself, the rspeeds are so bad on that map its unbelieveable

Oh one point id like to say to is:

SOURCE .MAPS FROM OTHER PEOPLE ARE NOT ALWAYS RIGHT!!!!

ive noticed the trend in people releasing the .maps as apparent help, i see it more as a problem due to the fact no one makes maps totally correct, so a newbie will follow the wrong ways, take wildwest source maps, the hint brushing is completely wrong on the town map, it draws the whole map in game and the fps is the worst ive seen on any rtcw map. So i dont think its a good idea.

GREAT GAMEPLAY IS OFTEN PURE LUCK!

Unless you do extensive testing (thats the reason mp_beach is good imo, they did tons of testing) then its really just luck, this couldnt be more apparent in cs maps, take de_dust most played map of all time, gameplay was luck, even the author dave said it was. Personally i think its because people like the sand, so always have sand in your maps! and dont forget the key to a sucessful map, crates, get those crates in or forget about it!

[omnix32]

Great points, and now that I think about it, maps with sand do seem to be popular...............
fun mapping.

[WeblionX]

Ah yes, crates. Let's see... I think my map is fine. It'll just take people some time to realize that the grate is actually dynomiteable, since it doesn't have the dynomite icon.

[eyeronik]

Originally posted by WeblionX
Ah yes, crates. Let's see... I think my map is fine. It'll just take people some time to realize that the grate is actually dynomiteable, since it doesn't have the dynomite icon.

lol why u on about your grate, give a tip :p

[tonka]

yes nice topic, good points, valid reasoning.

Bottom line when all variables and factors are added =
make the damn map anyway u gawd damn like because its all just hit and miss.
A person can luv a map one day and totally suck at it, so he hates it tomorrow.
A map can be damn great in design and gameplay, but have a texture in there the guy doesnt like and he hates it.
Like I said before...

Map for yourself only.Make it however u want but make it with good speeds at least.
Who can tell a good map from a popular one?
Beach is good because it came with the game.If a mapper were to create it after as a custom, it would never be played.
Too simple, too easy, laggy at times.
Half the people who play dont even know how to install a new map.
Then u got the pros out there who like the playing field tilted to their side.A new map means new stratedgy, making everyone equal until they learn it.
Server peopple dont like empty servers.They wont go custom cause people dont join(because they dont know how to install).

There r so many reasons why custom maps dont get played.
But there is only one big reason you make them...u want to create a masterpiece to call your own.
Period.
When u release a map, at first u check to see the numbers of how many dled it. WOW.
After a week, you dont check, u couldnt be bothered to check the internet list for your map name to see if its on a server.
You dont care anymore.
But you are already thinking about your next one.
Thats what its all about.
Creating something because u can and want to,for the challenge and to call it your own.

Im not disrespecting you guys, you have all made valuable contributions to rtcw,mapping and all that goes with it.
But behind all the crap lies the fact,
you do it cause YOU want to.
:)

[eyeronik]

Thing is when you are new you dont tend to listen to the tips until later because you just wanna get going, i think anyway. I wish more newbies would go into making the map for themselves otherwise itll end in tears,

especially when they dont release the chances of the map being played is very low, infact the only community where i can remember custom maps really being played is dod, when dod first began the maps werent too good and many customs were better than official ones imo and they have some dedicated custom maps servers out there, but apart from dod people just cant be arsed, myself included to be honest, even if u do see one its usually empty :P

[tonka]

omnix..you a great guy and know way more than I.
But this quote
"you as good as your first map."

Is not right.
Everyones first map sux the big one.
Infact I would say something like" your better than your last one"
If you're not, then you havent really learned anything and should maybe move on to finger-painting or lego.
:D

I think a very important factor in mapping we missed.
Help.
These help forums and others are our only source of resources that are shared and offered.
I dont know where I would be,certainly not even remotely close to where i am at now in my map.
I think the most time being spent more than actually mapping is forum and mapping sites in general.
Learning how to do whats next.
A new mapper should always find a site he's comfortable with and stick with it.
The people you get to know end up being more helpful and personable as you do your map.
Telling you a great deal more than just a document or a tut.
Yea, forum help is a good part of mapping, like the old chinese saying..
"want to know the road ahead? "
"ask the ones coming back"

:)

[omnix32]

Hey Tonka I am impressed you read everthing I typed.
I think I ment for us peeps that know each other we will judge how good of a mapper we are by our first release. People see others post all the time and then when they release there first map thats how there judged.........

Of course you can always improve.......................................

As for people that don't know how to install maps????? Its sad, but I am afraid your correct. There are alot of people that don't know a thing about files and windows. Could it be that we should take the time and make the map installable???? All we need to do is tell the program to place the pk3 in the main folder. Not that much extra work.......

OH well.........get to see different oppinions. Mine was more on a professional perspective and not a hobby perspective. (Selling out creativity for retail profit and simple layout)
Keep em comming.

[eyeronik]

yeh you can get free installers i think, ive always wanted to make one, think ill have a go when i get back just for fun (off out!), if im successful i could write up a tutorial, but i prolly wont be :P

....later that very same day...

I found an installer called installmaker or something and it works and its easy to use, very easy, to use and to make yourself, almost to easy! has a final screen of click here for installmaker, a sort of advert for itself which is fair enough, ill write up a tutorial for it, its not hard but at least people know about it then and can download it etc

[tonka]

Thats a great idea Eye!!

I know for a fact peeps dont know how to install because with uss I was forever telling people how to do it.

Of course I read everything u wrote omnix, I read everything at least twice.
I know you were writing more on a professional and technical level of mapping.

My contribution was more for the personal mapper himself.
Lets face it, no matter how good you do, your map is not going to be considered the greatest, it wont take the world over by storm, it wont be recognised as the award winner you start out thinking it will be.
Its disappointing at first and to a new mapper, very discouraging.
Thats why I say' map for yourself only'.Dont map for other people's attention and praise.
If you do it for yourself and are proud of what u made, then your a success no matter what the outcome.

Personally, i said this before, its an art.
Its a new medium for the talented and creative people out there to produce an idea that ponders in there heads.
Mapping is not a game.
Mapping uses a game as a platform to unviel itself.
I think in the future with maps become more grand and realistic, it will be looked at as an art form.
In a map with all the lights and sounds and archetecture and design is a thousand beautiful pictures.
Much more than a still life or a painting of flowers.
Its even more practical because it can be used more than just a visual stimulant.
Anyway, an artist paints a pichure becomes he has an idea to produce.A mapper does the same thing.
No pichure is identical to another because the artist has developed his own style and taste.
So does a mapper.
I really dont know what im trying to say !! LOL
But as artists that we r, its always about perfecting your ownself, your own craft.
You never become as good as u want to be, but that makes u strive harder.
Critics will always be there to knock u down or knock u out.
A true artist never quits, because he cant.

[eyeronik]

doesnt really need a tut, but it did need the info, just read the top bit, the bottom part is a tut but most people wont need it, its really easy to use actually, good stuff

http://www.wolfensteinx.com/surface/tutorials/installer.html

Hmm think i need to update files page and map of the week :P

[Midnight_Oil]

Hmmm great points everyone.

I think everyone knows that especially in RTCW custom maps dont get played much. Just look at the game browser...not many custom maps running. Thats a real shame because there are some very good ones out there and even many with a few problems are fun to play.

I think that we mappers look to each other for for recognition of our mapping skill. Even if you make a great map its unlikely you will ever get any feedback from players at large. Just as modern art is made for other artists, we make our art for each other. All the work that goes into a map is lost on most players, but our fellow mappers understand.

Maby including an installer with our maps will help, thanks for posting that tut Eyeronik : )

But at the end of the day, you wouldnt do it if you didnt love it!

[WeblionX]

Can't you snag the RTCW directory from the registry? You should have put that in the tuturiol.

[eyeronik]

Oh was that a browse style thing? i just thought it was some mad stuff and didnt look, ill check it out and change it,

* update, i dont understand it, its mad stuff! :)

[tonka]

Good point Oil.

Our peers and comrades are our only QA team.

[omnix32]

Thats what I wanted, to generate some different perspectives on map building. There are no right ways as it is a ART. There are some wrong ways though we all need to consider. I have seen so many maps that COULD HAVE BEEN good, but fall way short because technical considerations were not given.

CONSIDER THIS:
I feel that a big problem is that there are no map download sites that only offer the best maps and a site where servers can trust that people would want these maps.
Seems that RTCW files will allow any crummy map for download. There use to be a time back in the DOOM days that only the best of the best were allowed. Just getting your map online for download was a great honor. I think those days pretty much ended with Counterstrike and UT.
So, alot of reasons that maps don't get on servers is that there is to much crap to wade through for the servers. Am I wrong??? Or does there need to be only the best of the best map download site???

AND WHO HAS A RIGHT TO BE THE JUDGE!!!!


fun mapping.................

[tonka]

I think thats where the problem will be..in the judging.
Hell if I could do it.

[VENDING MENACE]

i think the real problem with rtcw files' system is that there are not reviews of maps. At least they have a rating system, but that really doesn't tell you how good the map is. The maps NEED to be peer reviewed and these revuews should appear below the map's page (think amazon). anywayz, just my two cents:D

[WeblionX]

There was actually a talk a while ago with Nib and some others about coming up with a site specifically for custom maps and reviews of them, with a panel of peers to judge them all and assign a rating. Nothing has ever happened though.

[omnix32]

I See the above mentioned problem as being the reason why there are not alot of servers that have custom maps.
If you read the reviews on some of the old UT or Doom maps the reviewers even picked apart a small texture glitch and game flow was all important. Those maps that scored the highest (none to a few) where the ones always found on servers. It gave a mapper something to work for and kept the garbage out of the way.

I know of Nibs plan, but I had to disagree with them as I wanted the below standard maps to not even be available for download after a short time. Just keep the best on the site.
It would be judged on game flow, texture glitches, scipting work, textures color scheme and r_speed. If the map scored below perfect it would stay on the site for a short time (after everyone had a chance to look at it and final decision was made) then the map would go bye, bye.............

The site would be made known to all gamers and servers and the servers could rotate the top maps as they could have confidence that the map was beyond good.
There would be only one site to get the server played maps and would be in a easy to follow list so gamers could have the maps needed to play online. installer included, I suppose......
fun mapping.

[tonka]

that would have been a great idea if it happened.

[MuffinMan]

problem is - who pays for it.... i can't - having a download page is expensive (and i don't have the time for it either)

[WeblionX]

PHPWebhosting costs around $6 a month.

[MuffinMan]

yeah but for example my wolfproject.net costs about that and i have 1 gig of transfer volume (will have to change that soon), if you have a download page, hosting maps or something else you will get high transfer rates and so the costs rise dramatically... or do u mean hosting just the page and still linking to other sites... then i think it wouldn't be of much use
(like mentioned in tramdesign some time before) i think it would be great to have some real good map-packs, so that servers can demand for a certain pack, rummie and nib did it the right way in my eyes, you know what the server expects and you don't get kicked all the time because of some missing map.
judging a map is a hard task though - you can't avoid being influenced and i think that even bad ratet maps (not important who does the rating) can become very popular but are this way completely left out...

...but: if anybody really is planning to do such a page i would of course support it as good as i can and as far as testing is concerned i could possibly get a bunch of people (at least my clan)

[omnix32]

Who pays for it.......... Thats good.
In my oppinion the developers should be more involved and host such a site. Those maps choosen then become the offical maps.
fun mapping.

[tonka]

that is a nice idea.

That the game developers,which have the site anyway!!, host special maps that they deem good.
That way they keep their franchise going and keep up the interest of the players (buyers).
That does seem logical to have map offerings or map packs available thru the official site.
I see no down fall, what so ever in that.

[eyeronik]

Originally posted by VENDING MENACE
i think the real problem with rtcw files' system is that there are not reviews of maps. At least they have a rating system, but that really doesn't tell you how good the map is. The maps NEED to be peer reviewed and these revuews should appear below the map's page (think amazon). anywayz, just my two cents:D

I agree, users give stupid comments and strange ratings like they will give it a 1 if they dont like a tree they saw or something.
-----------------------

Hosting does cost a lot mainly for unlimited bandwidth and more than 5gb of storage costs a hell of a lot, i have some webspace:

5 gb TRANSFER
1 GB DISK SPACE

For a really ridiclously low price like i think £35 pound a year, i still have it actually but the 5gb a month isnt enough i dont think and they charge you if you go over and i couldnt afford to take that chance. So for a map dl site u would need unlimited and thats a lot of cash. got my hosting from: http://www.oktagone.net.au btw

Surface is lucky enough to be hosted here on www.wolfensteinx.com and its unlimited or so it seems, but i dont know if they would want me putting thousand of gigs on :)

------------------------

Also rtcw custom maps arent good enough to be critised like say cs maps, many of the maps have bigger problems than a misaligned texture or a misplaced tree.

update a bit later* dunno if i quite think that really, lol, i dunnooo, cant someone just have a load of popular custom servers and we play merrily happily after :) i think i can shorten this post, infact i can:

-too many people release there first maps
-first map release authors dont want critisium as "its my first release
-a lot maps clogging up file sites that people shouldnt of released
-no big review sites at all!

why doesnt someone else do map reviews not me? surely someone must be interested?

[tonka]

I couldnt rate anyones map cause, really, who is an authority on mapping???

Just because a reviewer thinks this should be here or that should be there, really isnt justification to criticise.
A mapper does what he wants to do, because it how he wants things to be.
The look, the feel, the layout, its what he visioned, not the reviewer.If the reviewer doesnt like this or that, he cant say the map is wrong or bad because of it.
All the reviewer can do really, is to comment on fps, or build.
Its like movie critics.
They say, this should of been like that, and that should of been like this. Its not his story to tell and really has no business telling others how the story should of been told because, well, its not his.
Take paintings of red spots on a white canvas. To me, its red spots on a canvas, but the artist visions, blood on a surrendered flag.? huh?
The art critics praise it, some call it crap.
But to everyone it means something different.
How can u judge someone else's vision and say its wrong or even good?
I guess what im trying to say is its all relative to personal taste, and one mans opinion is never exactly the same as another.
It would be too hard and pointless.
really.

[Midnight_Oil]

Wolf mapping is really quite relaxed.

Take a look at the Quake3 community. These guys are incredibly good. In that community they dont pull any punches, they will point out every flaw in a map.IMHO, those guys are authorities on mapping.

Mapping is art, to be sure, but any artist who releases his work must be ready to take any and all critisism without being offended.