The Old Man
2002-08-31, 23:53
Author Message
greekdish
Joined: 04 Aug 2002
Posts: 31
Posted: 16 Aug 2002 09:25 am Post subject: Cluster Portals, Hint Brushes, Area Portals, Oh My!!!!!
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Can someone please explain "the rule" to using these features?? Im sorry, but as a first time mapper, I cant understand the tutorials mainly because my map isnt made up of too many square doorways. Ive built an oilrig, with underground tunnels, and there are many curves and cylinders being used. If someone can please either explain it to me in layman's terms, how to best optimize this map. This map is maybe about halfway finished, but when I test it in game, I see EVERY thing that I built. The game engine is drawing everything. FPS are low, and dropping with every new feature I add in. What is the difference between a Cluster Portal, a hint brush, or an area portal in terms of optimization??? Please do not respond with "Read the tutorials" as I already have many many times. Its just not pertainable to my situation I believe. I understand the concept of what you dont see, shouldn't be drawn by the engine, but accomplishing this is a different story for me. Thanks in advance for the help
Nick
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Ghast
Joined: 04 Aug 2002
Posts: 36
Location: Los Angeles
Posted: 16 Aug 2002 09:38 am Post subject:
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It could be many things, getting someone to look might be easier. Cluster portals are for SPs and ai, to make .aas files smaller???
Hint brushes can do more damage than good.
How much of your map is structural & how much detail?
http://www2.gvsu.edu/~bickelj/quakin/frameset.htm
Sorry you are having hard time, is your map really tall?
Does it have a lot of stairs?
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greekdish
Joined: 04 Aug 2002
Posts: 31
Posted: 16 Aug 2002 09:53 am Post subject:
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Well, here is a link to my map...its zipped up...if anyone wants to look at it and hopefully explain what to do better. I already have a few cluster portals in there, but I guess being that its for single player, its useless. Hope someone can clarify all this for me.
http://server3003.freeyellow.com/greekdish/oilrig.zip
Thanks again
Nick
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krekits
Joined: 04 Aug 2002
Posts: 33
Posted: 16 Aug 2002 10:34 am Post subject:
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Your map is a box map. Typically, everything in box maps is almost always drawn. Very little you can do to improve fram rate there, I'm afraid.
Note that patches do not block vis (pointing at the way you built the tubes).
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greekdish
Joined: 04 Aug 2002
Posts: 31
Posted: 16 Aug 2002 10:42 am Post subject:
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How can I not make it a box map?? How can I change this to improve it? There has to be some way to change this otherwise all this effort on this map will be wasted if 20 people cant play on this map. =(
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krekits
Joined: 04 Aug 2002
Posts: 33
Posted: 16 Aug 2002 10:53 am Post subject:
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If you can't change it without removing the box, you're pretty much stuck with it. The box looks to be way too big for the oil rig, so try to make it smaller. Probably won't help the FPS a lot though, since the same amount of triangles still will be drawn.
Cut down on the brush/face count also reduces triangles. I'm sure you know this.
Many multi-pass shaders might also affect frame rate; the more passes need to be done, the slower the FPS will be.
The map needs to be fully VISed, fastvis won't do.
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Midnight_Oil
Joined: 04 Aug 2002
Posts: 59
Location: Maine, USA
Posted: 16 Aug 2002 02:40 pm Post subject:
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I can see a few problems. You have a lot of patches and that will hurt fps. Do your railings with alpha textures, that will help a lot right there. Get rid of the cluster portals. Get rid of the hint brushes unless you realy understand how to use them. Use the caulk hull method of construction. Make everything detail then clone brushes and make them structural caulk superimposed over your textured detail brushes. Do this with an eye to how you want to split up vis. Use your filters. Use the .prt viewer. This looks like it will be a good map and im sure it can be made to work, so dont give up. : )
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greekdish
Joined: 04 Aug 2002
Posts: 31
Posted: 16 Aug 2002 07:33 pm Post subject:
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Thanks for the words of encouragement Midnight Oil.....so, the caulk method of construction is...?? Lemme see if i have this right from what you said.....where ever I have brushes, make them detail, clone it(space bar?), and enlarge it to cover it, then make it structural?? Does that include the patches and cylinders?? Im sure they do eat a lot of fps, but they do look nicer than blocky chunks for hallways, no?? =)
OK, I will get back to work on that caulk hull method. I always thought using caulk just meant what ever side of the brush you dont want seen, you put a caulk texture on it.
Any reason why it wont compile though?? I wanted to try a full viz compile, but I keep getting an error saying max_map_visiablity exceeded.
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krekits
Joined: 04 Aug 2002
Posts: 33
Posted: 16 Aug 2002 09:58 pm Post subject:
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The caulk hull method does not involve cloning the detail brushes and making them structural, if you do that you have misunderstood the caulk hull method.
A box map will not benefit at all from the caulk hull method.
A very good example of the caulk hull method can be seen here:
http://www.quake3world.com/ubb/Forum6/HTML/020488.html
For the caulk hull method to be really effective, the map needs to be somewhat complex, at the very least it needs to have two rooms separated from each other.
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Midnight_Oil
Joined: 04 Aug 2002
Posts: 59
Location: Maine, USA
Posted: 17 Aug 2002 12:32 am Post subject:
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Caulk hull is kind of hard to explain without examples. I think any map would see some benifit from its use. If you cant do a full compile its time to stop adding and find the problem. The tubes are probably ok, but could be made from brushes if need be. There are LOTS of railings, and that adds up fast. Make them from alpha textures. They will look almost as good and will save a lot on rspeeds. Did you say you had the max lightgrid error? If you have the new q3map 2.x use the lightgrid shader/texture to limit the size of the lightgrid.
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krekits
Joined: 04 Aug 2002
Posts: 33
Posted: 17 Aug 2002 06:07 am Post subject:
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As I said earlier, a box map will not benefit from the caulk hull method. VIS has to be calculated for everything in the box so having the hull caulk or not won't make any difference.
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Detoeni
Joined: 04 Aug 2002
Posts: 28
Location: U.K.
Posted: 17 Aug 2002 01:23 pm Post subject:
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Good Day All
Greekdish, had a look at your map, I like the idear but it never going to work with an open structure like you got.
Instead of oilrig, why not a sea fort?
WW2 coastal defences that were used in the River Thames.
There large block construction would be better than the one your using.
Just a thought.
See link.
http://freespace.virgin.net/line.design/forts/sea_forts.htm
Dt
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greekdish
Joined: 04 Aug 2002
Posts: 31
Posted: 16 Aug 2002 09:25 am Post subject: Cluster Portals, Hint Brushes, Area Portals, Oh My!!!!!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Can someone please explain "the rule" to using these features?? Im sorry, but as a first time mapper, I cant understand the tutorials mainly because my map isnt made up of too many square doorways. Ive built an oilrig, with underground tunnels, and there are many curves and cylinders being used. If someone can please either explain it to me in layman's terms, how to best optimize this map. This map is maybe about halfway finished, but when I test it in game, I see EVERY thing that I built. The game engine is drawing everything. FPS are low, and dropping with every new feature I add in. What is the difference between a Cluster Portal, a hint brush, or an area portal in terms of optimization??? Please do not respond with "Read the tutorials" as I already have many many times. Its just not pertainable to my situation I believe. I understand the concept of what you dont see, shouldn't be drawn by the engine, but accomplishing this is a different story for me. Thanks in advance for the help
Nick
Back to top
Ghast
Joined: 04 Aug 2002
Posts: 36
Location: Los Angeles
Posted: 16 Aug 2002 09:38 am Post subject:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It could be many things, getting someone to look might be easier. Cluster portals are for SPs and ai, to make .aas files smaller???
Hint brushes can do more damage than good.
How much of your map is structural & how much detail?
http://www2.gvsu.edu/~bickelj/quakin/frameset.htm
Sorry you are having hard time, is your map really tall?
Does it have a lot of stairs?
Back to top
greekdish
Joined: 04 Aug 2002
Posts: 31
Posted: 16 Aug 2002 09:53 am Post subject:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well, here is a link to my map...its zipped up...if anyone wants to look at it and hopefully explain what to do better. I already have a few cluster portals in there, but I guess being that its for single player, its useless. Hope someone can clarify all this for me.
http://server3003.freeyellow.com/greekdish/oilrig.zip
Thanks again
Nick
Back to top
krekits
Joined: 04 Aug 2002
Posts: 33
Posted: 16 Aug 2002 10:34 am Post subject:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Your map is a box map. Typically, everything in box maps is almost always drawn. Very little you can do to improve fram rate there, I'm afraid.
Note that patches do not block vis (pointing at the way you built the tubes).
Back to top
greekdish
Joined: 04 Aug 2002
Posts: 31
Posted: 16 Aug 2002 10:42 am Post subject:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
How can I not make it a box map?? How can I change this to improve it? There has to be some way to change this otherwise all this effort on this map will be wasted if 20 people cant play on this map. =(
Back to top
krekits
Joined: 04 Aug 2002
Posts: 33
Posted: 16 Aug 2002 10:53 am Post subject:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you can't change it without removing the box, you're pretty much stuck with it. The box looks to be way too big for the oil rig, so try to make it smaller. Probably won't help the FPS a lot though, since the same amount of triangles still will be drawn.
Cut down on the brush/face count also reduces triangles. I'm sure you know this.
Many multi-pass shaders might also affect frame rate; the more passes need to be done, the slower the FPS will be.
The map needs to be fully VISed, fastvis won't do.
Back to top
Midnight_Oil
Joined: 04 Aug 2002
Posts: 59
Location: Maine, USA
Posted: 16 Aug 2002 02:40 pm Post subject:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I can see a few problems. You have a lot of patches and that will hurt fps. Do your railings with alpha textures, that will help a lot right there. Get rid of the cluster portals. Get rid of the hint brushes unless you realy understand how to use them. Use the caulk hull method of construction. Make everything detail then clone brushes and make them structural caulk superimposed over your textured detail brushes. Do this with an eye to how you want to split up vis. Use your filters. Use the .prt viewer. This looks like it will be a good map and im sure it can be made to work, so dont give up. : )
Back to top
greekdish
Joined: 04 Aug 2002
Posts: 31
Posted: 16 Aug 2002 07:33 pm Post subject:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks for the words of encouragement Midnight Oil.....so, the caulk method of construction is...?? Lemme see if i have this right from what you said.....where ever I have brushes, make them detail, clone it(space bar?), and enlarge it to cover it, then make it structural?? Does that include the patches and cylinders?? Im sure they do eat a lot of fps, but they do look nicer than blocky chunks for hallways, no?? =)
OK, I will get back to work on that caulk hull method. I always thought using caulk just meant what ever side of the brush you dont want seen, you put a caulk texture on it.
Any reason why it wont compile though?? I wanted to try a full viz compile, but I keep getting an error saying max_map_visiablity exceeded.
Back to top
krekits
Joined: 04 Aug 2002
Posts: 33
Posted: 16 Aug 2002 09:58 pm Post subject:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The caulk hull method does not involve cloning the detail brushes and making them structural, if you do that you have misunderstood the caulk hull method.
A box map will not benefit at all from the caulk hull method.
A very good example of the caulk hull method can be seen here:
http://www.quake3world.com/ubb/Forum6/HTML/020488.html
For the caulk hull method to be really effective, the map needs to be somewhat complex, at the very least it needs to have two rooms separated from each other.
Back to top
Midnight_Oil
Joined: 04 Aug 2002
Posts: 59
Location: Maine, USA
Posted: 17 Aug 2002 12:32 am Post subject:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Caulk hull is kind of hard to explain without examples. I think any map would see some benifit from its use. If you cant do a full compile its time to stop adding and find the problem. The tubes are probably ok, but could be made from brushes if need be. There are LOTS of railings, and that adds up fast. Make them from alpha textures. They will look almost as good and will save a lot on rspeeds. Did you say you had the max lightgrid error? If you have the new q3map 2.x use the lightgrid shader/texture to limit the size of the lightgrid.
Back to top
krekits
Joined: 04 Aug 2002
Posts: 33
Posted: 17 Aug 2002 06:07 am Post subject:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As I said earlier, a box map will not benefit from the caulk hull method. VIS has to be calculated for everything in the box so having the hull caulk or not won't make any difference.
Back to top
Detoeni
Joined: 04 Aug 2002
Posts: 28
Location: U.K.
Posted: 17 Aug 2002 01:23 pm Post subject:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Good Day All
Greekdish, had a look at your map, I like the idear but it never going to work with an open structure like you got.
Instead of oilrig, why not a sea fort?
WW2 coastal defences that were used in the River Thames.
There large block construction would be better than the one your using.
Just a thought.
See link.
http://freespace.virgin.net/line.design/forts/sea_forts.htm
Dt
Back to top